Milton and Mane

The Weight They Carry: First Responders and PTSD

Steve Krokoff and Christy Weeks

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Every call, every save, every loss, first responders carry more than we see. In this powerful episode, Milton Police Officer Dennis Pishock opens up about the toll PTSD takes on those in emergency service, drawing from over two decades as a firefighter and law enforcement officer.

Dennis shares his own story with raw honesty, from growing up with a veteran father who never spoke of war to confronting his own trauma after years of crisis response. He reflects on the mental burden of always moving to the next emergency without time to process, and how silence and stigma still keep many from asking for help.

But this is more than a story of pain—it's one of healing. Dennis talks about the power of peer support, the importance of community, and the unexpected moments that remind first responders why they do what they do.

Whether you're a first responder yourself, love someone who serves, or simply want to better understand the human beings behind the badges, this conversation offers rare insight into both the cost and the calling of emergency service. 

Please note: This episode contains sensitive and potentially triggering content related to trauma, PTSD, and mental health in emergency service. Listener discretion is advised.

Crisis Resources: NAMI - Georgia
If you or a loved one is experiencing a mental health crisis and are NOT in immediate physical danger, call 988 to get connected with the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. 988 provides 24/7, free, confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals.

With the community in mind, this podcast explores the stories, people, and initiatives that make our community unique. Each episode offers insights into local government, highlights Milton's history and future developments, and showcases the vibrant arts, culture, and sustainability efforts shaping our city. Join the conversation, celebrate our community, and discover how we're building a better Milton together.

Do you have an idea for an episode or would like to request a specific topic to be covered? Email Christy Weeks, christy.weeks@miltonga.gov

Learn more about the City of Milton at www.miltonga.gov.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to Milton and Maine, the official podcast for the city of Milton. We want to bring you closer to the heart of our community through stories that inform, inspire and connect. Each episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at the people, projects and priorities shaping Milton, covering everything from local government and future development to arts, culture, sustainability and public safety. Whether you're a resident, a local business owner or just curious about our city, this is your front row seat to what makes Milton special. Welcome back to Milton and Made. I'm your host, christy Weeks, the communications manager for the city of Milton.

Speaker 1:

Today's episode is a powerful one. We're joined by Milton PD officer Dennis Peshok, who has 20 plus years as a first responder, and he's going to talk to us about a subject that often lives in the shadows and that's PTSD in first responders. Dennis has walked this road himself. His personal journey, recently captured in a book he wrote, is raw and honest, and it's not just about his own healing. It's a message to every law enforcement officer, firefighter, military veteran or anyone who's ever answered the call to serve.

Speaker 1:

Through sleepless nights, missed milestones and the weight of duty, dennis offers not just perspective but purpose. He believes deeply in the value of service and the bond that it creates purpose. He believes deeply in the value of service and the bond that it creates, and today he opens up about what it has meant for him, what he's learned and what he's still learning, and how he's working to help others do the same. With that, I'm going to welcome Officer Peshok to the podcast. I'm so grateful you're here. I know we have a lot to cover, so I'm not going to keep chatting like I tend to do, so welcome Dennis.

Speaker 2:

Hey, thanks for having me, christy, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for taking the time out of your day. You're a busy guy and I'm going to let you start with your background, because you have quite a history.

Speaker 2:

All right, I grew up originally in Norristown, pennsylvania, up north outside Philadelphia, a little suburb out there blue collar city, very blue collar. Everyone's hard working and most folks stick around there too. Graduated college got out of there as fast as I could. I say it was either that or the military. So we got out, grew up in a family of servitude for sure. Yeah, father of Vietnam, veteran combat vet, and now that I'm into peer support, we see now how basically messed up he was in the. In that way he came back a different man, clearly from combat yeah and uh, all this promotions were, uh, combat promotions.

Speaker 2:

And he, he didn't really talk about it but he said, uh, his friends were killed in front of him and they said, jim, you're the next rank. And he was like, I don't want the rank, like it's yours, it's not a yeah, yeah. So he got, I believe, three combat promotions. I think it was staff sergeant. He left as my then sergeant but, um, vietnam definitely changed him. Uh, he didn't talk about it till, probably after 60 years old and it was super minute stories. So, and we do not talk about it.

Speaker 2:

Um, yeah, you did not discuss it again. This is a mental health uh podcast, so we'll go into it. So we'll go into mental health here. One of his stories was we used to play Cowboys and Indians as kids, right, and that's what everyone did. We didn't have phones and all that. And he said my first combat in the jungle in Vietnam was great. He said we're running around as Cowboys and Indians and then he says next thing, I know I look over my friend's shot and dead. And he said then all of a sudden, the game wasn't fun anymore and we're like, okay, that's a showstopper at a party. You know, when you're a young kid just bad stories. One time his crew was bombed incorrectly by his own friendly fire and they had to go pick up buddies.

Speaker 2:

And again, we won't go into details, but again, mental health never address. That's your job and move on. Definitely the suck it up buttercup attitude.

Speaker 1:

You know what? So my uncle went to Vietnam and he was given the option to because he was a little bit of a troublemaker in high school, right. So he said judge said you can either go into the military or you're going to jail. So he went into the Marines and he went to Vietnam and he came back.

Speaker 1:

A completely different person grew up not really knowing a lot about my uncle, just because he didn't talk about a lot of things. And it wasn't until I was probably in my mid to late twenties before he started to tell and the only the only story he told me and I remember this so very clearly because they'd get in the choppers to leave. And he goes yeah, we used to have to sit on our helmets and I go, but wouldn't it do better on your head? And he goes well, not when they're shooting up the bottom of your chopper. You had to sit on something. He goes because they took a lot of us out that way and he's spent years battling those demons that he brought home from Vietnam and he still to this day and he's in his 70s still has episodes, but at least now he can talk about a little bit of it. He just recently put on that he was military, because for a long time he wouldn't even acknowledge it.

Speaker 1:

He wouldn't talk about it at all, right.

Speaker 2:

And they were welcome. Welcome back is a funny word. They were not they were, so I mean they can tell stories forever on how horrible they were treated, coming back Correct, and that's why. That's why he hit it, I'm sure.

Speaker 1:

I know better than to ask questions. I'm terribly curious, but I know better than to ask questions because that's on him if he ever wants to talk. That is not for me to know if he's not ready for it.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and it's funny. You said that because my dad was a joker in high school and he decided to be a joker in the Marines and they have better jokes. They said OK, jim, go walk the line, which means you're in the front of the jungle by yourself scouting, and uh, that definitely changed him and, like I said it, ate him up. He died a few years ago and there's no question the ptsd.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then alcohol, of course, which is common in our job and we'll get to that and that's it'll eat you up and they'll say you know cancer, whatever.

Speaker 2:

But it's the job, but yeah but it would get you um speaking of not talking about. Like you knew, uh, grandfather, before that battle of lady and okinawa, that was two of his smaller incredible battles but um never talked about. He was a gunner on a uh on a ship and he was one of the first ships ever hit by a kamikaze, but you knew not to discuss it and you know, grandpa, back then if you mentioned something, grandma would come over and hit you or whatever.

Speaker 2:

We don't discuss right that ever around here and you're like, okay, that's the end of the conversation right there, but of course they had um major, major things yeah I like to tell a story, um, about, uh, shaking the nets.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you ever heard that story. I haven't. I haven't. So a delta force operator I can't remember his name right now he just told a story recently, um, when they were going for therapy, he had some world war ii vets in there too, and they call it this is great for us called Don't Shake the Net Boy.

Speaker 2:

This is what they would say to the guys in therapy. And he was like what does that mean? He said you remember D-Day climbing down the ropes? And he said yeah, yeah, yeah. He said well, the guys who were defecating themselves or anything were starting to make other people die. So he said you shake the rope and kill that guy. So now you're living with killing your buddy. He said we, we killed one, but we saved 10 more. So he said we sit there in therapy and a guy would start talking and say don't shake that net, Don't shake that net. And then that was shut your mouth. We're not bringing this up again. So that's your old school mentality. That is not those words, but it's still very real today, Don't talk about it.

Speaker 2:

You got it, so I think it goes very well with what we're discussing right now too, though.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so I'm going to let you take the lead on this. Sure, I want you to share some of your inspiration for writing your book, and I will have the information in the show notes on the book and any other references that you have that you think people might benefit from and get a better understanding. But I'm going to let you go. All right, let's see let you go All right, let's see where you go.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we'll get into the servitude part. I was doing basically dead-end jobs and just felt the need to serve. It's in the soul, it's in the spirit, like either you know or you don't. That's it.

Speaker 2:

And got into firefighting. I got into Gwinnett County it was the premier department in the United States. Almost it was a two-year waiting list. I had about 1,000 firemen impossible to get on and I finally gave up, applied for the city of Atlanta and they were short, of course, and this was back in 2001. And Gwinnett finally called and like start next week. I'm like all right, great. So I started Gwinnett County brutal department, 18th-thirtiest in the United States. The United States People don't know that it's hard here and again, I love my guys here.

Speaker 2:

If you don't know a department of that speed and level, you just don't know. You don't sleep. Uh, you bring in bedding to some stations and they laugh at you. You're like where's my locker? They're like don't, don't bother, don't even waste your time. And you're like, oh yeah, whatever they were, right, you never even make it to that thing, right, that, of course is fun for a few years and you never notice. But, uh, that will get you eventually, which we'll get into. Yeah, so I did firefighting.

Speaker 2:

Uh, in the beginning you start out, you're both your firefighter, medic I'm still medic today, 24 years now and your first few years they called the box. You're on the box, the square ambulance and you're on that box for first couple years, mostly before you even start firefighting, and that's definitely where you get your medical experience. It's a lot of shootings there, gang related stabbings, uh, cardiac arrests, constantly. My first shift I had a fatality and I'm thinking, okay, yeah, first shift, but uh, this was normal, I had a fire, had a house fire, and that was just my first shift and you keep going and I was in norcross, which is very, very busy area. It's rough, it's very rough and uh, you don't sleep, you get a lot of experience and once you leave that house, as they say, you go to the next house. Like you work there for how long? Like people are like, okay, this, this guy's got, he's got moxie, he's got he's got the mojo and you

Speaker 2:

don't think it because you think everyone's like this but they're not. You know, went pretty good. Uh, swift water technician, swift water rescue did that for years. Um, lieutenant over there, eventually eventually made lieutenant, was acting captain for a couple of years and Swiftwater Rescue again, that's the elite, that's your SWAT, that is the guys. Right, you got to make the team and once you're there, man, you guys ain't leaving until you get hurt. It is awesome. And I definitely left for more reasons. One summer we pulled 13 bodies bodies out and that was a tough summer and eventually, uh, that'll get to, they'll get to anybody. And I said, you know, I I've seen enough. So, um, went to, uh, just other places and mandatory overtime kicked in, and what that means is 48 hours on, 24 hours off.

Speaker 1:

And we talked about before processing, we talked about zero processing yeah, because there's a statistic out there and I have a few of them, and this one is from CU Anschutz and SAMHSA. Samhsa reported on this as well. A study found that nearly 70% of EMS professionals reported not having enough time to recover between traumatic events contributing to increased stress and mental health challenges.

Speaker 2:

Events contributing to increased stress and mental health challenges. Yeah, definitely on the ambulance. There's no processing, it is running a fatality, running a cardiac arrest, and I don't know if you've ever seen a picture of an ambulance after a cardiac arrest.

Speaker 1:

I have not.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, look it up. It is a bloody mess. There's equipment scattered everywhere and someone's calling you to say we need you back in service.

Speaker 1:

There is zero processing nothing.

Speaker 2:

So because we won't go into details. But cardiac arrests are ugly, yeah, most of them ain't like hollywood. So, um, you're cleaning up that ambulance. They're still calling you. We need you in service. There's a call holding for you somewhere. You're driving out lights and sirens still cleaning up the mess.

Speaker 2:

You got it and you pick up the next one and then you pick up that next call, and that's how it goes for 24 hours. So in 2013, when they mandated mandatory overtime, it was then 48 hours of that. So zero processing, zero recovery, hence your divorce rates, which we'll get into. Sure. Gwyneth Fires was 78% at one time. Wow, yeah, and that's normal. So that's just how it is.

Speaker 1:

By the way, there were air quotes around that normal, just for those of you that can't see. Dennis, it's important to know that Correct.

Speaker 2:

And just to tell you about culture change and that, again, is my passion Change the culture, change the stigma, get rid of this garbage, old-school mentality which is killing people and just because it hasn't hit you yet, it's going to get you.

Speaker 1:

It's going to get you. It's going to get you because I thought the same thing. There's absolutely no way you can be a part of that and witness that and put that much of yourself into what you're doing every day and not carry some of that home. Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And they say this job won't change you, you're going to be fine. You go home to mama and here's the kids and she's shot out because she just did a day or two of sure and she deserves that break. And uh, it's not that you deserve it and that's what the culture changes. To me as a man and as a spouse, it's not my wife's job to handle it. It's my job as a dad to be a good parent too. And people, they still have that old school mentality. Well, I gotta rest, I gotta go back, go back to what you're going back to hell, like that's what you're doing and your family, who's going to be the ones when it's all over, are waiting for you.

Speaker 1:

So Right, yeah, wow, hard to hard to find those boundaries. But I think that's a lot of how structuring coming through some of these events, you have to set your boundaries, you have to set your expectations, and expectations is. You have to set your expectations Correct, and expectations is a weird word for me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it is. What are the expectations? Let's go there. So the department, at least the super bit, like we'll just use them as an example Cobb Gwinnett, fulton, that just don't stop. The expectations are your soul. That's the bottom line. You can sugarcoat it any way you want to, but they want your soul. They want you there 24 7. Somebody calls out sick. You're coming in. It's mandatory. So what we are? We are mandated individuals at anything. So you know, I've been through hurricanes, tornadoes, the snowstorms. You're coming to work like you're not. They don't care that what you just saw. Whatever you have to be there. You're a professional and that's a call. So what are the expectations? There are none. You, you are unlimited. You are uncle sam's, that's it. Yeah, you gotta do whatever.

Speaker 1:

And then it's very difficult on the spouse of course too, but that's a different conversation for another day yeah, when I I foresee this conversation being a little longer than this 45 minutes that we're going to capture today, but what I really want to get to is let's talk about the statistics and let's talk about how you. Prevalence of PTSD says approximately 33% of first responders develop PTS, compared to 6.8% in the general population. Tell me what you think about that, because that came straight out of SAMHSA.

Speaker 2:

It's so under-reported. That's comical. I mean, and again, you don't want to use that as a crutch where someone says, well, I saw this. I mean, we're talking major trauma. Mostly this isn't your. You know, my pen fell off my desk and I'm having trauma here. This is again no time to process a massive call to the next massive call to you. Bury it that Again. No time to process a massive call to the next massive call to you. Bury it. That is just beyond. I don't know what the number is, because people aren't going to be honest, never. People are scared of their command staffs, they're afraid to tell. It's still the stigma which, again, my purpose is to change that stigma.

Speaker 2:

And we can go into that conference I was in by first responders last week. It's 200 people with the same mentality and we are laser focused on doing it too. Because at what point is 350 officers shot in line of duty last year? Well, that's fine. There's guys that's 350, that's not officers who have ptsd, that's all the family members, that's all their partners and that's. But, of course, what does the partner say to somebody else?

Speaker 1:

I'm good, I'm fine, that's like me going home to my wife say you good, I'm fine, and I she feels like she has to be strong for you, because you're already dealing.

Speaker 2:

Correct.

Speaker 1:

So then therefore, she doesn't process either.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so yeah, we'll just end it there. It is beyond under because of fears and stereotypes, still today.

Speaker 1:

Stigma. Stigma is a big deal.

Speaker 2:

Stigma is a big deal.

Speaker 1:

And we're talking PTSD and trauma, which I think a lot of people transition into the idea of well, that's therapy. There's therapy out there, yes, but what we're not talking about is the addictions that follow and the behaviors that are so detrimental to one's health. Yep.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

So I used to work in addiction treatment for 10 years and it was one of the most eye-opening experiences and unfortunately the facility I worked at was not totally capable of handling some of the level of PTSD and mental health challenges that people were having, so we had to send them someplace else, and it's really hard to address addiction when somebody is battling the things that they have never talked about.

Speaker 2:

Correct.

Speaker 1:

And I've been told they can't talk about it.

Speaker 2:

You're saying you need to stop drinking. We've missed the whole core. You need to stop being angry. Okay, and here's your 10 step process. We forgot why you're angry, and that's what we're trying to address too, and these violent outbreaks and your isolation, all these things, and then suicide. It's because you never addressed the core and what has happened since 2001 for me and all that.

Speaker 1:

So how do you change that? Where do we go to even begin that? Because it's like moving the Titanic.

Speaker 2:

It is, and that's again you find your why in life right, and it takes and that's my why's my purpose, and that's other people's who do this. Um, it starts small again. You're starting small, you tell your story and you start seeing people, uh, who are like thank god, somebody's been real, because I've been fighting these demons too, and it is so. I get to go to different places that have had bad things happen. I go to go to different departments and you meet all these people and you see it in these big round tables, because you do a round table where you don't have to talk. In these sessions you can't make somebody talk, but when they start talking, then their brother talks and then her sister starts talking and that's all it takes is that little nudge, and that's what I'm doing and that's what we're doing right now. Yeah, and someone will, I guarantee it. If we can touch one person here, that's all we do, it's all you care about, and that touches somebody else and touches somebody else.

Speaker 1:

So it starts small it does, and the first hurdle is acknowledging yes acknowledging that there is an issue that you haven't dealt with.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and then, once you're brave enough to speak about it, because the person sitting next to you is like nobody understands where I'm at nobody understands what I I've seen, what have I experienced, where I've been or how I'm feeling in this moment and I feel like if one brave person like you can sit there and be completely honest as you were in your book I mentioned it earlier that you were brutally honest in your book and I believe you did have somebody reach out to you recently.

Speaker 2:

I have Again, I keep them all, any message I get. I save them all, every text message, every email. I put all my contacts in my book and, uh, a Marine a couple of days ago did and just said, hey, ma'am, read your book out of this world, Can we talk? And I was like, of course he's. Like I'm a three time uh hospital, you know, induced hospital for PTSD and trauma. Try to take my own life. And thank God you wrote this book and let's talk, and we're going to talk tomorrow, and a lot of messages like that. You know you can't go into details because you're sure, but that's what it's about and I'm not a Marine vet and but we've been through the same battles, right, mentally, health, wise.

Speaker 1:

And he knows it and he's like yep, either you know, you know and he's like you know, so we'll talk out tomorrow. Live, it'll be pretty incredible. I love that. Yeah, to be able to put yourself in that position is outstanding in the sense that you're willing. You don't know this guy.

Speaker 2:

Nope, and the braveness of these people reaching out is that you can't ever, ever looked at. It takes so much, like we talked beforehand, these dropping the mask, mask as I say, just dropping that ego. Cut the bs. Let's get real, because life's too short and, uh, people just need that nudge.

Speaker 1:

That's what we said and what we talked, what we also mentioned and I remember hearing this when I worked for the treatment center, we had a handful, of course, of first responders and some of them were multiple trips to treatment, right, but I remember specifically one of them saying we're just told this is part of it. You got it. Ptsd it's part of it. It's what you signed on to deal with. It's part of the job, and nobody's addressing the back end of that, that. You're still the human.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

So what are we doing? What do we do?

Speaker 2:

so yeah again. Um, it doesn't matter. Like you said, there are so many departments that are not going to address it, because this will never be me. We talked about stats. Uh, talked about 350 officers shot. Oh what, how many is that? 50 killed by gunfire? Uh, it's right here in milton we did we've had. We had three shootings last year in our area, unfortunately, jeremy the Roswell officer too right here. That affects everybody.

Speaker 2:

Everybody If you're at the funeral or the wake just out of this world response. That continues on afterwards too. I mean, that just keeps going and I lost a lot of friends and everyone's there for two weeks, but then, after two weeks, is what they call the disappearing time. Now you're on your own again. Everyone's forgotten. We got other things to do, but the department here, it's great, we're definitely getting there. I'm not going to say we're there yet, but we are definitely there. We have the people in the right place, which is incredible. I have a lieutenant and a sergeant who help me unbelievably. Every time I go to anything, I talk to them and we discuss it, us it and they're like thanks for doing this and I'm like thanks for sending me. Yeah and uh, the conference I went last week is, uh, the first responder yeah, tell me about that oh, my god, mind-blowing.

Speaker 2:

Um, just, uh, you think you're doing well. No one ever has this figured out, by the way. It's a constant game and someone says well, I can help you. No man, you might be able to, but we are constantly battling those demons because they're always yapping yeah, you might have saved that one in life, but, but I got five more that I took, so you're always fighting that.

Speaker 2:

And, peer support counselor, you can get a reference which is, they say, christy needs some help. I think you'd be a good fit for her and we'll make contact and we'll do whatever it takes. If you're having just bad problems and we just talk and that's it, and I just hear you out and we build a relationship. And that's one aspect of it too, right there, and that's again huge. Well, you go to this conference. That's a pretty high level of what we're doing right now for treatment and helping people. But this conference was like out of this dang world, like I can't even explain it. Like we, we started with um donna from gotcha blankets. She's the first speaker, okay, and we're like, oh, this is, this is gonna be a conference. Here we go, we got two days, can be happy. She's like I just let you know. I'm here, I make blankets and my son was a samaritan police officer and he killed himself and that's how we started off and I'm like, well, there's an attention getter.

Speaker 2:

The reality hits, oh, very quickly beyond quick and that was two days of that different people's stories and you get round tables and you help each other out. I'm talking people, full breakdowns, like getting real, and there's nobody hiding behind the macho ego bs, as we always say, and every one of these people is out there to help someone at the very end, like now. Continue this message, continue this message. And this is like her a mother, yeah, who lost her kid.

Speaker 2:

And then you have, uh, different people who have different, who've lost different children, and they get up there and talk and, uh, these are stories that we won't do on a podcast, to the detail how they found them, how, yeah, the body looked and this is a parent. And you're like, okay, exactly, so, my life's pretty hard, but it ain't like that. And these people have turned this into a positive way. And how do they do that? By having these conversations about having this incredible community and support group and, uh, that's what we're here for. And then continue this and help that person move on, and help each other move on, cause we're all in this together.

Speaker 1:

Wow, yeah, sorry, that's okay. Um I uh, I've got three kids.

Speaker 2:

Yes.

Speaker 1:

Um, you have children, yep, and uh, I I briefly mentioned earlier that I keep everybody really really tight. Yes, correct, like I'm. I'm that mom. Just a lot of it is just motivated out of fear. My daughter had lost a classmate when she was a sophomore in high school and my daughter's response was off the chain.

Speaker 1:

The way she handled herself. She was 15 years old and she said, mom, I'm going to start a prayer group. And so her little 15-year-old self made flyers and invited the churches and invited the community and she started. I think the first morning she was out there. She had maybe 10 people, a couple of students, one of the local pastors, and by the time it finished, when school was over and whatnot, we were gathering 50-plus people in front of the school every day to pray over the students. Because she didn't know any other way to deal with her loss and the law, and she was. She still reaches out to the family, still talks about going fishing. That's what she does on on the anniversary because she had no, she didn't know any way else. And for 15, that's a lot of processing a lot of coping and everything.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Yep.

Speaker 1:

She talked to churches. She went to three different churches and told her story about Kyle and I think it has shaped the way she approaches Christ people.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely it does, and a lot, of, a lot of people in this world don't have those moments. You know we call it to uh, I can't say the on F yourself moment or come to Jesus moment. That's very important and uh, she had it and it's incredible. And again, I talked, we talked about community Correct. That's what it's about, and you don't get by any of this stuff through yourself.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

And of course I believe that the opposite of addiction is connection my whole story and many, many stories of ours. Is isolation, correct and uh, that leads to suicide. That's the bottom line. Human beings are made to be together, correct? That's it and we talk about. The greatest gift in the world is children. Is that family and um?

Speaker 1:

that's why you keep them so close I don't want to lose that like Mom. Why do you need to know what I'm doing right now?

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Fear.

Speaker 2:

Anytime you bring that kind of stuff up, my mind processes. I just start going through all the kid suicides. I've been on all the kid deaths and those are the worst. They're always the worst. But how I define this is one good way is it's a trash compactor. For us, that trash compactor and dumpster. You keep dumping it in and it keeps compacting everything and it keeps compacting but it's only got so much, but you keep throwing it in there because it's working. I got this figured out and all of a sudden that trash compactor blows up.

Speaker 1:

Hence the word compartmentalize. You got it right, wow.

Speaker 2:

And it is great for us on calls. Calls, it's very important that we do that because we have to be professionals, like if I see something, I gotta ignore this body, I gotta get to here, I gotta do something still the job to do right, but it's the old school mentality of it. Stayed in that compartment. I never talk about it again. But now we are talking about it and, um, the next day, maybe, maybe not I, but we are going to address this and that's very. This is all about mental health and peer support officer, wellness, wellness. We're going to talk about this call. It doesn't matter how bad it was, it's not about that. And of course, everyone is still. I'm good, I'm going to do this. But it comes down to that squad level at first, and a good supervisor Got a great sergeant, great sergeants, and we're going to have this talk and I know they're going to support me and we're going to get the group together and have that great little talk.

Speaker 2:

Okay, what did you see? And when I do peer support counseling for the state of georgia, it is that what did you? And it is tough questions. What did you see? How do you feel that? That is very uncomfortable for anybody, and then now you're taking that type a personality. Go, go, go. How do you feel? I'm not supposed to feel the feelings aren't a thing exactly.

Speaker 2:

I don't have time for feelings, right? So, um, now you're going to talk about it and people start talking man, they're, they're not good and but then, when they see somebody else step up, they start flowing, tears start flowing, there's tissues all around and, uh, it's just a therapy, you're getting it out, you're getting it out and getting you to that next stage.

Speaker 1:

Whatever that is to keep healing, because it's a healing process it's continual and from what I understand you're, you're beginning that process within absolutely milton's pd totally.

Speaker 2:

Uh, yeah, again we got off track there. But again, um, it starts with the supervisors they got to be on board starts with command set being on board. Uh, we're going to do something, hopefully after the summer yeah, you forget, because, uh, everyone's already got pto scheduled, everyone's off, you got family vacations planned, so this will be something we'll put together, be a mandatory thing. Everyone has to be on board, like any program. If one person from above you says this is bs, well that that person first of all needs a new job because you just right, get out like right you get out and then, um, it'll destroy the entire program, right?

Speaker 2:

that's like anything new you're trying to do. So I laugh at people because I was that guy. I was the egotistical idiot until I looked in the mirror and I said you better change, and that's what it?

Speaker 2:

takes and that person is just I just laugh, You're hiding it, man, but your time is coming, and law enforcement and divorce and suicides prove that correctly. Yes, it proves it all the time. So, yeah, we will. The department's great, we're going to get there and hopefully by the end of this year we'll have something rock solid in place, and I think we will, and we have great support. If I may, I'll talk about it. Yes, please, we have Summit Counseling. They're right there for us too, after our major incidents that we've had. The different priests and pastors have been phenomenal.

Speaker 1:

If not responding to the call.

Speaker 2:

There's so many great people and my job is to bring it all together too, like I had a coffee with Billy a couple of weeks ago, sitting down and just. I've met with Jason from someone individually and I'm going to bring it all together. That's my thing too, and cause everyone's kind of out there, but they all want to be in the same spot and I think I can help bring that all together here.

Speaker 1:

I know I can, so I will so you started this movement where you're pulling the resources together because that's hard, that's not an easy task that you're taking on and I love that. Uh, your leadership within the department and I and I know leadership here in city hall is also behind it. I've had a handful of conversations with Chief and City Manager Steve Krokoff and it is top of their mind and it is important to them the wellness of their officers and their firefighters. So I love that you're getting that going.

Speaker 2:

And I love that they support it, because it's what does it lead to? Of course, bad morale, sick hours. It leads to everything, and again, we're just talking about that core, like what we talked about before. Once you start addressing this happy people, happy place, just like happy mama, happy family, so it's the same thing and it just everything keeps building, building, building and it's awesome. Again, we're getting there, we're going to get there.

Speaker 1:

And I know we're going to do it together because that's what it takes. Yeah, yeah, well, if there's ever any way I can help, I'm I don't know how, I mean I'm an outsider here, but deep in my heart I feel like I should be PD, but you know, I'm still working on my position in there. Too old for an officer.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate the honesty. Again, we talked off camera too, and it's awesome you talked about, I think, colorado or something like that. You had some dealings with that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so there was the Aurora Theater shooting yes absolutely.

Speaker 1:

And that's where we would hear you know, hey, it's part of the job, it's part of the job and nobody can understand that. And then there was also an individual who was very big in the addiction treatment speaking world. He became a counselor. He worked big trying to help people and he was a survivor of Columbine and his buddy. He was behind a desk in the library sitting next to his buddy and one of the shooters took out his buddy right next to him and spared him. He was shot in the knee, had to wait until he could get out the back door and then, as adrenaline is carrying him straight out that back door in hindsight, 2020, you look at that and you go. Why didn't the librarian turn everybody out the back door? Nobody knew what was outside.

Speaker 2:

And panic overrides everything too.

Speaker 1:

And you can't assume that you're going to walk outside because there's only one shooter right. I mean, there were so many unknowns hindsight 2020, you can dissect it and say this is what you should have done. So he immediately went back and got treatment um for pain and before he knew it here he is a high school kid.

Speaker 1:

He's 10 years deep in addiction absolutely um, because the doctors kept giving him stuff, because that'll do the trick hey, he told me I needed it and that's where he ended up and it ended up taking his life even after he got. So he was sober for 10 years and he relapsed and it got him the weight of the traumatic experience he could never outrun.

Speaker 2:

Yep, it's again we talked about it's a continual healing process. That 10 years of soberness was awesome, but it was also useless when you took your life because we still haven't addressed this. And again, this we're breaking it down. We are breaking it down from whether it's childhood trauma uh, you see that a lot, a lot of us in public safety. You totally, you don't even understand it, but the more they're starting to study, it is. You had some type of issues at home with your parents or whatever it doesn't. It doesn't matter, but there was some kind of trauma in your life that caused you to go this route, and that's something that they've been going oh yeah, last couple years we're going, it's absolutely, it's pretty uh, it's pretty amazing.

Speaker 2:

And and you start looking back like no, no, no, and then you start saying, well, did this happen? You're like I guess that happened, but it wasn't trauma, it was normal in our lives. So, right again, we, we grew up different, uh, we did everything that we do, like.

Speaker 1:

I find myself with tendencies that my kids are like, well, that's a little adhd, and I'm like, no, it's. That's how you dealt with things. What are you talking about?

Speaker 2:

Exactly. Well, they just smacked us on the side of the head and said get over this, you're fine. Yeah, exactly, irish Catholics. So that was it, that was fine. But you talk about that the gentleman who was there at the Columbine and again, we'll just go into it's, therefore, and I discuss it in my book a lot. I discuss it with people. This is the spirituality side. I like to talk to the pastors and stuff too. Why did God save him? Why did God kill me? This is real, and it's definitely with your military vets too.

Speaker 2:

If you lose a whole bunch of friends and you start saying, you start thinking you're not good enough, you start going to isolation, like we talked about, and then you start drinking and there's no reason. It's just that survival's guilt and it's very, very real. Yeah, I talk about the floods in my book. We did the floods in 2009 in gwinnett and rescued a lot of people, but that's the ones you didn't save is the crazy part. The demons are yapping. Yeah, you, you did, okay, but the human mind is always trying to go to this place and again we talk about this, just again changing the stigma. That's normal and we want to keep that positive. But what about this. Yeah, you know what You're right, because that human mind is still trying to go down that route and we're redirecting it to the positive again too, and there's always something positive that you've done that can be looked at in that training or whatever. But no survival of guilt is real, like you were just talking about, and unfortunately that gentleman, he didn't make it for whatever reason.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah but we all fight it.

Speaker 1:

So we're going to, this is going to be another. We've got a whole other. We barely scratched the surface here on this topic, but I wanted to introduce it, and I wanted you to become here on this topic. But I wanted to introduce it and I wanted you to become your voice to be heard, because I think what your purpose is is serving others in a way other than the way you have in the past. Right.

Speaker 2:

I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1:

So I love that leadership is behind you. I love that you've connected with the resources. If there is anything, as we wrap this up, that you can tell the listeners on how to either be supportive or get involved or gain knowledge, or what would you tell them? How do, how do we help?

Speaker 2:

man, we, we need another time, but that's awesome. It's a great question. I'm not being derogatory. The civilians are what keep us going. We do this job to help others, right. We do this job to save lives. My job now is to save the law enforcement side life too, and the fire. And again, nurses, whoever dispatchers. But anytime you get that cup of coffee bought for you, something like something that small, oh my God, it makes such a difference, especially on a bad day and um, and nobody's going to know when you're having a bad day.

Speaker 2:

No, and um, like people said, they all they watch videos. I can't believe the stuff you deal with. Yeah, we deal with this every day and we deal with it. In Milton, a traffic stop flips a switch, like that. People go from super nice to you, hand them a ticket to ready to jump out that car and kill you, and that's it, and that is. It's important that the citizens around here understand that those folks are here too. We are real close to the danger zone. You talk about the Thin Bloom line. No, that's it. We are keeping those individuals away from here as much as we can. But again, simple things, just normal conversations.

Speaker 2:

It's always embarrassing for me to be thanked for my service, like I don't like that. I'm like I didn't do anything. This is what I do, but I always say thanks for acknowledging me too. It's just nice, and to me it's just a simple thing of a nice conversation and a nice cup of coffee and just getting to know the people more. Because you look at people, you can tell attitudes right, and they'll go up to a certain cop and they can say, oh, he's too macho and they're kind of standoffish. Well, no one wants to talk to you and you're probably doing the wrong job too.

Speaker 2:

But I love that community outreach part too, where you get to if you go into a business any of your local business, a coffee shop and you get to know that owner, you know those people have your back too. They love having you in there too, and I love meeting them and that's what it's about. And again, we talked about it in the beginning the family, that's community. Whether it's church, whether it's martial arts, bjj, brazilian jiu-jitsu, it's still a community of 10, 20, 30 people, 200 people, and you're making a positive impact in that world. So keep doing what you're doing. I would say Milton Residence. We appreciate you and um.

Speaker 1:

Oh, they do love their, they do love their first responders here, they do, and we appreciate them.

Speaker 2:

That's huge Cause. Um, and Gwinnett, they hated me, they hated all of us. Um, we had the kids who would. I don't even want to go there. They hated us. So, uh, it's great to be in a culture where they love you and accept you first.

Speaker 1:

people we call when there's trouble, but when you show up, when you're not called because maybe somebody else needed help, everybody's very standoffish and I don't understand it. Now I was brought up to stay out of the police station.

Speaker 2:

Correct Okay, if I ever found myself there.

Speaker 1:

It was a bad decision on my part, yes, but now you know, I've talked to Detective Moore, I've talked to Officer Tidwell. I've talked to Detective Moore, I've talked to Officer Tidwell, I've talked to Chief Griffin, and they're always like hey, if you need to talk, if you've got something, stop by, I'm here. Right, you can come talk to me. Correct? Which is a completely different perspective than when our generation Changing the stigma Correct there, it is right there.

Speaker 1:

Changing the culture, because y'all get up and put your pants on, same way everybody else does every single morning. Your job, your daily activities that happen are drastically different than mine. My emergency is, you know, my computer screen turned on upside down this morning, right, which, not going to lie, it did happen yesterday. It was the weirdest thing I've ever experienced. Your emergencies are much more gosh. I don't even have a word Like. Your daily is so much more intense and intense. Give me words, man. You know words I'm struggling to find. I don't even have it.

Speaker 2:

It's unrelatable. Sometimes it's very difficult, especially when you go home and we have to shut it off. Just early on it was like hey, we got the kids party right now and I haven't slept in 36 hours and guess what? You go to that kids party and you put on a face and that builds, and that builds. And that's definitely where you never know what we just went on, whether it was a fatality or something. Because again we have to be that professional, correct, we? We really really appreciate when folks recognize that and, um, again, it's a great community. I really believe they do that.

Speaker 1:

it's just night and day from where I'm from so last last little tidbit, because I know you have an amazing story that I'm so excited for you to share because of all the things and we didn't get terribly deep here, but we're starting to talk about it, but I want you to talk about what recently happened.

Speaker 2:

Are we doing, charlotte? Yes, all right, we'll do it.

Speaker 1:

Come on, all right, we'll do it Come on All right.

Speaker 2:

So Charlotte was a, I would say the dark side, the book side Lost a lot of kids, a lot of child fatalities, moms murdering their own kids. So definitely a dark side of my life. And about the next year I was a lieutenant at a different station and ran a call about 2.30 in the morning, whatever normal. This is Norcross. It's nonstop run, run, run, run, run. No time. Get out there. The mother is bleeding out in the ground. She's having a baby. It's a birth like preeclampsia. Baby's way too young, they say, and she's bleeding out. We're thinking she's dead, baby's definitely dead and it's just normal there. So I can end it right there as in.

Speaker 2:

Then we got more calls. We patched her up as much as we could. I figured she was dead and the baby was dead and like this isn't callous, like this is what we do there, you move on to the next call and I never thought about it again. Well, I had this awesome paramedic, vern. Her name's Laura, but anyway she kept in touch with this family. But again, when you're so busy at these stations and again, no disrespect to anybody you don't have time. Like I might not see Christie in the morning. So Christie didn't let me know that this child might have a breath. Now, like we haven't even communicated at all, because we're doing things.

Speaker 2:

I'm on a fire, I'm doing something else. I'm on another cardiac arrest. I remember she came back and she was like I showered for two hours trying to get the blood off me. This call will never leave me. But she found out the kid had a breath. I never knew any of this. So she calls me and she's like hey, I want you to come to the fire station.

Speaker 2:

This is nine years later, this is about a month ago, and I'm like I'm not going there. I have bad memories, it's not what I want. She's like I really want you there. She talks me into it and she's like the crew will be there, which is cool. I haven't seen these folks in again nine years. So we get out there and we meet in the parking lot, get a huge hug. I'm feeling very awkward, like I don't want to be here. I don't even know why the hell I'm here either. And this car pulls up and this mother, chinese mother and Chinese little girl come running up and they're hugging us and Vern's like take my picture, picture. So I take her picture. I'm like hey, whatever, okay, I have no clue.

Speaker 1:

And the kid's hugging on my leg and I'm like this is awkward, like this is this is extremely awkward.

Speaker 2:

And, um, so verne starts telling you remember the call? I'm like no idea what you're talking about. And then she starts discussing. I said, well, I'm trying to play along like well, who was on the call? And she said, well, you, this, did this and and you were, of course, a lieutenant you ran. I'm like, oh, I did. And then the mother comes up to thank me and hands me this book which we went over, and that's this is, and we'll get into it maybe next time.

Speaker 2:

The trauma. I blacked it out for nine years, blacked out behind the well, behind the dam, and then, all of a sudden, I saw the mother on the ground, I saw all the blood, I saw the apartment was in shambles, it was a poor area and it all came back to me. The, the, the dam blew up and it was like I saw it all. It was like a movie. That's all I can explain to this. And I turned around and said I need a minute. I walked into the bunk room and I tried to hold it together and I'm like, holy I was. I was at first scared Cause, like what else is up here? And that's where we go into the mental health and the peer support. Like what else have I blocked out of my life? And now it's there just waiting to come out and that's kind of crazy. Then I'm like, who are these people? So we go back to whole cruise there Very emotional, clearly Very emotional time, a lot of tears and everything else. And the mother is thanking us, she hands us a book, the photo album, and says you know, because of you, and she gives us from the birth on of her baby and this is it. And we talk about a spider web, that spider web that spreads out to this beautiful area of now. She has three kids. She might have had one. Um, her baby on the uh, we call it the pcr patient care report zero scores on everything. Baby's dead.

Speaker 2:

And we talked to the medics later. They said so if you're blue, you have a chance, you're cyanotic, whatever, which basically means you have some color or something like that, you could live. This kid was dead. It was gray and it came out in the amniotic sack in the field, which means you have zero chance of life is what that means, because we don't have equipment to treat a right. Verne said the baby was the size of her palm and she has small hands in an amniotic sack. So, again, the skill level to save this life is just out of this world. You got to cut equipment up, you're starting to cut equipment that in half and you're just doing as best you can. It's just, it's combat medicine. You're doing what you can to save a life and, um, so we saved her life had no concept.

Speaker 2:

So the mother, two weeks before the visit, finally told her daughter, charlotte, that I have a story to tell you. Charlotte doesn't know any of this either, and these heroes saved her life and she's like I want to meet them and just got the chills, exactly. So they drove from Alabama four hours, met us at 11 am, like on a Wednesday, and I just showed up like one minute before them. And they come out of this car from alabama, four hours, no traffic. This perfect, every this beautiful circle comes into play and, um, we meet and, uh, she's alive, she just had her ninth birthday and, um, it was just unbelievable, because we don't, we don't get these calls, we don't get these calls, we don't get these saves and we never get the feedback of you saved someone's life on one of these cardiac arrests we did, and just incredible.

Speaker 2:

And then the news channel picked it up too. We got the interviews and we could go further with this, but we don't want too much attention to a 9-year-old girl. So, again, we're keeping the story going and you got to see the pictures and it's a save for life. I think her birthday is like April 11th, April 13th, and I got it marked on my calendar.

Speaker 1:

I'll celebrate that every year now too. Yeah, you know, you guys don't get a lot of the wins.

Speaker 2:

Right, correct, thank you. That sums it up.

Speaker 1:

You don't get a lot of the wins, you only. You see the other side and unfortunately, because of the nature of your business, you have to turn around and walk away, and you don't know how many. You have to remember that there are other people out there that you saved.

Speaker 2:

Yes, exactly, and who are they and where are they Correct?

Speaker 1:

You may never know, but you have to know that the efforts that EMS and first responders put out there is 100% I want to say appreciated. But I know some people don't understand, but I know here.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 1:

I know you are.

Speaker 2:

Yep and we appreciate it. It's awesome.

Speaker 1:

And we're going to keep this conversation going. You will be back because I feel like we need follow-up and we need to keep talking.

Speaker 2:

We've only just begun.

Speaker 1:

We have. Oh, there's our title of the podcast. There it is Beautiful. There it is, Officer Pishak.

Speaker 2:

Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for sharing today. Listeners. I will have a link to his book in the show notes, so if you're interested, you can do that. He is probably and I say this very honestly one of the most genuine, calm individuals. I mean he's he. We were in meet together when I first started here. We were cause he was new and I remember that very specifically. He was kind and um, just has a really good energy about him. So if you see him out there, stop and say hi, because he deserves it. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for checking in with us today. I hope this was a great conversation for you and helps you understand a little bit of what's going on within our department and the changes they're trying to make. A little bit of what's going on within our department and the changes they're trying to make. Our leadership is on point and the officer heart that is out there, that wants to reach out and help others, is strong. So stay safe, milton. Thanks for listening to Milton in Maine. We hope this episode gave you fresh insights into what makes our city so special. Stay connected and don't miss an episode by subscribing to this podcast on your favorite platform and following us on social media for all updates. And, of course, if you want to learn more about the city, visit us online at wwwmiltongagov for resources, news and upcoming events. Until next time, thanks for being part of the conversation and we'll see you on the next Milton and Main.